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SSj4 Goku VS SSjG Goku; Both are Buu Saga; no god boost
Topic Started: Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM (2,642 Views)
FayeTimidea
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So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note.
1) The god boost was retconned.
> Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.
Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost.
2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both.

Round 1)
SSj4 VS SSjGod

Round 2)
SSj4 VS SSjBlue

Round 3)
Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue

Bonus:
Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
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StrenuousSpider
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I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.

Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
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魔王子

Son Goku(BoG): 100,000,000
-Super Saiyan God: 50,000,000,000,000

Son Goku(RF): 6,000,000,000
-Saiyan Beyond God: 60,000,000,000,000
-SSGSS: 3,000,000,000,000,000

Son Goku(ToP): 36,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan God: 360,000,000,000,000
-SSGSS: 18,000,000,000,000,000

Son Goku(Evil Dragons): 120,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan 4: 4,800,000,000,000,000
--Beyond Limits: 48,000,000,000,000,000

So... Super Saiyan 4 Goku beats God Goku in general, and can beat an early Blue Goku, but ultimately loses against SSGSS ToP Goku.

EDIT: Oh, right, Beyond Limits is a factor to consider as well. Beyond Limits cleans house. SSGSS Complete seems to be equivalent to standard SSGSS in the anime, so nothing really changes there.

EDIT 2: Apparently I shouldn't skim. Both are Boo saga, huh? The result depends on how I treat Blue.

Son Goku(W/O Ritual): 90,000,000
-Super Saiyan God: 900,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan Blue: 45,000,000,000,000

Son Goku(W/ Ritual): 90,000,000
-Super Saiyan God: 45,000,000,000,000
-Super Saiyan Blue: 2,250,000,000,000,000

Son Goku: 90,000,000
-Super Saiyan 4: 3,600,000,000,000
--Beyond Limits: 36,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 4 Goku beats Godku W/O ritual, but loses to God with it. Super Saiyan 4 Goku loses to Blue in general.
Edited by ThePrinceOfSaiyans, Yesterday, 1:07 AM.
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StrenuousSpider
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Edit- dont know why two posted.
Edited by StrenuousSpider, Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM.
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SSJ4 Goku wins.
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FayeTimidea
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StrenuousSpider
Jul 6 2018, 12:35 AM
I dont think anything was retconed what so ever. There are 2 god forms in my mind. One achieved through a ritual and one through training. The one we see goku ise later is the one from training.

Anyway God goku loses. Xeno goku absorbed god like super goku and was avout equal to blue. Both should be equal so ssj4 > god.
This just sounds like the 'two bases' theory but for SSj God; do you have any evidence to back up the claim, and for what real reason would Goku train to unlock a technically inferior form? The only thing I see going for it is stamina usage, but at the same time in the ToP stamina seemed to be a non-issue until the end, at which point they still were using things like Blue instead of God.
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PF18
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Quote:
 
Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.


If there was a retcon and the god boost is gone and SSG functions the same way, then why was this SSG shown to be far inferior to the potara boost and not that large of a boost over SSJ3? (All shown in the fight of Goku vs girl U6 Saiyans.) SSG was clearly shown to be superior to potara and an unbelievably massive boost over SSJ3, but we can clearly see that neither of those things are true about SSG in the ToP anymore.


.....Could it be that because he experienced and absorbed the power of SSG, he can't just stack the same astronomically large boost over his base/SSJ?? We can clearly see that the relationship between potara/SSJ3 and SSG has changed. Him being able to stack the SSG boost twice would be ridiculously overpowered anyway.
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FayeTimidea
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 01:03 AM
Quote:
 
Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.


If there was a retcon and the god boost is gone and SSG functions the same way, then why was this SSG shown to be far inferior to the potara boost and not that large of a boost over SSJ3? (All shown in the fight of Goku vs girl U6 Saiyans.) SSG was clearly shown to be superior to potara and an unbelievably massive boost over SSJ3, but we can clearly see that neither of those things are true about SSG in the ToP anymore.


.....Could it be that because he experienced and absorbed the power of SSG, he can't just stack the same astronomically large boost over his base/SSJ?? We can clearly see that the relationship between potara/SSJ3 and SSG has changed. Him being able to stack the SSG boost twice would be ridiculously overpowered anyway.
Not a bad way to reason things out, and it keeps the power scaling intact which earns you Meaningless Internet PointsTM from me, at the very least. I'll take that into consideration in the future since it is a clever take on it.
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superperfectnerd
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PF18
Jul 6 2018, 01:03 AM
Quote:
 
Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.


If there was a retcon and the god boost is gone and SSG functions the same way, then why was this SSG shown to be far inferior to the potara boost and not that large of a boost over SSJ3? (All shown in the fight of Goku vs girl U6 Saiyans.) SSG was clearly shown to be superior to potara and an unbelievably massive boost over SSJ3, but we can clearly see that neither of those things are true about SSG in the ToP anymore.


.....Could it be that because he experienced and absorbed the power of SSG, he can't just stack the same astronomically large boost over his base/SSJ?? We can clearly see that the relationship between potara/SSJ3 and SSG has changed. Him being able to stack the SSG boost twice would be ridiculously overpowered anyway.
Do you really think the writers see it that way?

That way and the to base theory are both just convoluted means of trying to make sense of it all. I don't think the writers are putting much thought into it, it's just base < ssj < ssj2 < ssj3 < ssjg < ssjb and potara is neat and can go anywhere they fancy.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 6 2018, 01:16 AM.
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lazerbem
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SSJ4 Goku dukes it out with Blue, that seems enough to convince me that it's meant to be on a higher echelon than red(perhaps not on par with Blue but close enough)
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PF18
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FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 01:07 AM
PF18
Jul 6 2018, 01:03 AM
Quote:
 
Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.


If there was a retcon and the god boost is gone and SSG functions the same way, then why was this SSG shown to be far inferior to the potara boost and not that large of a boost over SSJ3? (All shown in the fight of Goku vs girl U6 Saiyans.) SSG was clearly shown to be superior to potara and an unbelievably massive boost over SSJ3, but we can clearly see that neither of those things are true about SSG in the ToP anymore.


.....Could it be that because he experienced and absorbed the power of SSG, he can't just stack the same astronomically large boost over his base/SSJ?? We can clearly see that the relationship between potara/SSJ3 and SSG has changed. Him being able to stack the SSG boost twice would be ridiculously overpowered anyway.
Not a bad way to reason things out, and it keeps the power scaling intact which earns you Meaningless Internet PointsTM from me, at the very least. I'll take that into consideration in the future since it is a clever take on it.
I'm just saying that is what is shown. The God boost was emphasized for two episodes as they were trying to scream in our face that it is a thing. It isn't just going to suddenly disappear.

If we follow the conventions that were esablished in BoG then the following would be the case:

SSG Goku>>>SSJ2 Kefla

Since Caulifla is relative to Goku in equivalent forms.(ie their SSJ2s were on par with each other)

Instead we see that:

SSG Goku<Base Kefla

So at the very bare minimum a 100x less boost than we saw before. Additionally, Goku goes SSJ2 against Caulifla and is even and if SSG retained the same power over SSJ2, he would have proceeded to instantly one shot her and been careful not to kill her with the overwhelming advantage he would have. And he used SSJ3 against Caulifla too and he only did slightly/significantly better as a SSG.

And what was mentioned before wasn't some convoluted stuff like two base theory, it is just following the fact that Goku's SSG expired and he couldn't use it. Then he spends a year with a God who teaches him how to use God Ki. Naturally through training he would unlock the form again. He isn't trying to "achieve an inferior form" like you were suggesting. He achieved the form just as a function of learning God Ki. It isn't this conscious effort to attain this form.
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PF18
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superperfectnerd
Jul 6 2018, 01:15 AM
PF18
Jul 6 2018, 01:03 AM
Quote:
 
Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.


If there was a retcon and the god boost is gone and SSG functions the same way, then why was this SSG shown to be far inferior to the potara boost and not that large of a boost over SSJ3? (All shown in the fight of Goku vs girl U6 Saiyans.) SSG was clearly shown to be superior to potara and an unbelievably massive boost over SSJ3, but we can clearly see that neither of those things are true about SSG in the ToP anymore.


.....Could it be that because he experienced and absorbed the power of SSG, he can't just stack the same astronomically large boost over his base/SSJ?? We can clearly see that the relationship between potara/SSJ3 and SSG has changed. Him being able to stack the SSG boost twice would be ridiculously overpowered anyway.
Do you really think the writers see it that way?

That way and the to base theory are both just convoluted means of trying to make sense of it all. I don't think the writers are putting much thought into it, it's just base < ssj < ssj2 < ssj3 < ssjg < ssjb and potara is neat and can go anywhere they fancy.
Yeah, the writers probably don't put as much thought into it as me but I still have to rationalize it In-Universe.
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superperfectnerd
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Kefla could just be a better fusion that Vegetto, which is also annoying considering the special union of rivals but fusion is random depending on compatibility of the fusees it would seem since Vegeta still seems stronger than Kibito Kai but base Vegetto is a power house. If I gave Supreme Kai and Kibito the same multiplier base Vegetto got, he'd be stronger than Kid Boo.

It could still be ssj3 Vegetto < ssjg Goku < base Kefla and not contradict a thing but just like my preference for two base theory, you don't like the idea of Kefla being a better fusion than Vegetto (thousands of times better) so you've done a head canon.
Edited by superperfectnerd, Jul 6 2018, 01:43 AM.
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PF18
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superperfectnerd
Jul 6 2018, 01:41 AM
Kefla could just be a better fusion that Vegetto, which is also annoying considering the special union of rivals but fusion is random depending on compatibility of the fusees it would seem since Vegeta still seems stronger than Kibito Kai but base Vegetto is a power house. If I gave Supreme Kai and Kibito the same multiplier base Vegetto got, he'd be stronger than Kid Boo.

It could still be ssj3 Vegetto < ssjg Goku < base Kefla and not contradict a thing but just like my preference for two base theory, you don't like the idea of Kefla being a better fusion than Vegetto (thousands of times better) so you've done a head canon.
Well it is a matter of determining if you think it us more reasonable that Kefla's fusion is several times more potent for no reason given that the fusees arent even rivals, or that the SSG multiplier has been decreased drastically after the god boost. I mean to be able to stack SSG on top of the god boost would be insane and it appears that this isnt the case.

So then how do you rationalize SSG clearly not being an astronomical boost over SSJ2 anymore? It seems maybe a vouple fold over SSJ3 for that matter. Had it retained the same multiplier Goku would have killed Caulifla with his pinky toe on accident. Because their bases are equal and in BoG:

SSG>>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3>SSJ2>SSJ>>>Base

There's still way more evidence for this than two base theory .
Edited by PF18, Jul 6 2018, 02:12 AM.
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FayeTimidea
Jul 6 2018, 12:23 AM
So, with the recent release of the DBH anime, I got an idea: what if SSjG Goku and SSj4 Goku went toe to toe. There are just a couple of things I need to note.
1) The god boost was retconned.
> Goku going God in the Tournament of Power means that the power of the form isn't part of his base. It breaks the scaling of the whole series prior, but it's a retcon nonetheless.
Effectively, this means that God Goku can't win by the logic of having the God boost.
2) The Goku we're using is End of Buu Saga, for both.

Round 1)
SSj4 VS SSjGod

Round 2)
SSj4 VS SSjBlue

Round 3)
Ultra-Full-Power SSj4 (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Ultra-full-power_Saiyan_4) VS SSjBlue

Bonus:
Ultra-Full Power SSj4 VS Mastered Blue (Manga)
If you mean literally after Goku defeats Buu:

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJGOD: 19,200,000,000,000

Goku: 76,800,000
-MSSJ: 3,840,000,000
-SSJ2: 7,680,000,000
-SSJ3: 30,720,000,000
-SSJ4: 38,400,000,000 - 307,200,000,000


SSJ4 Goku loses horribly, unless I'm mistaken on the details?
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